Susan Campbell — Reflections on Relational Practices

Transcripts

Michael Porcelli: 00:00:02

All right. Hello, I'm Michael Porcelli, and I'm here with Dr. Susan Campbell. Hi, Susan.

Susan Campbell: 00:00:08

Hey, Mike.

Michael Porcelli: 00:00:09

I'm glad we are getting to sit down and record a conversation together, and I want to share a few things about. I encountered your work years ago, probably near a decade ago, and I read it was getting real, saying, what's real?

I got some of the cards, the getting real cards, and then I think there was getting real and dating cards.

Susan Campbell: 00:00:34

Yeah, two different card games.

Michael Porcelli: 00:00:36

Yeah. Yeah. I got a lot of value.

And one of the things I really appreciated about your books, especially, was there was something that was very succinct and clear and very practical, and it was what I was looking for. It was like how to be aware of relational things, dynamics or feelings, and then how to communicate about them.

And I know you have a background in counseling and also facilitation, but this particular area that I think of as relational communication, sort of seeing your work as really a major contribution to that area.

And it's kind of like, my favorite thing is, like, how do I take what I've learned in terms of how to communicate about relationships and what's going on between me and another person, and then now how to facilitate that between other people and how to teach them how to do it for themselves?

And I kind of wonder, from your point of view, just having been at this for as long as you have, maybe, has your perspective changed in any significant ways? Like, maybe things that you thought early on were super important, but maybe turned out to be less?

Or maybe things that you didn't think were as important, that turned out to be more. Maybe you've changed your mind about something.

Susan Campbell: 00:02:07

That's one thing. Yeah, one thing I can think about, and that's the whole issue of psychological safety.

Michael Porcelli: 00:02:12

Okay.

Susan Campbell: 00:02:14

My, I would say, deepest motivation for doing this, getting real work, is to teach people daily practices that help the self. This isn't so relational at first.

It's to help the self be able to know what you're feeling, know what triggers are coming up, what pains are coming up, what misinterpretations. You know, like the difference between hearing your partner slam the door and making up a story.

Well, that means I better stay away from them for the rest of the night. So just getting clearer within oneself was my original motivation.

And just knowing the difference between a thought and a feeling and a judgment and an assessment and using language in a way that helps you sort out and see reality more in the authentic relating movement that we're both part of too.

There's a great value on naming and noticing, and that was my value, too, noticing and naming, but first for oneself, because I think my original personal pain had to do with couples, my own couple relationships. And I was a couples counselor, right alongside being an organizational consultant, mostly team building.

Michael Porcelli: 00:03:51

You did a couples journey book, didn't you, about this?

Susan Campbell: 00:03:53

That was my first big, successful book. It sold over 100,000 copies in the first couple of years. So that's really my main contribution in a way. But that's so long ago.

But the triggering that happens when two people project their childhood unfinished business on each other and cannot see clearly. They just see what they fear. They don't see what's really out there because of their inability to hold enough emotional discomfort, emotional pain.

My diagnosis of the whole culture is we're pain phobic, and we're addicted to controlling the outcome of our communications so that nobody ever says anything that hurts me too much.

Michael Porcelli: 00:04:40

Got it.

Susan Campbell: 00:04:42

So I'm trying to help people get inwardly stronger to be able to bear. Oh, that actually triggered an old wound. First. It just feels like it hurts, which is an important thing to be able to do. This hurts.

This feels insulting. Or in the workplace, they might use words like, this feels disrespectful or controlling in couple relationships. Well, it's also disrespectful.

Disrespectful and controlling. Some of those words are used, but also, you're not there for me. I'm not enough for you.

So these are when somebody thinks that they're all alone in a relationship, or they think that the other person really is so critical of them, I'm never going to please this person. That sort of thing. When that kind of thing is going on, it's really impossible for them to actually hear what's going on for the other person.

When my own pain is so stirred up, I become very, very self centered. So what I wanted to do is develop, have couples develop some.

So it started with couples, you know, develop some practices where, yeah, your partner said something that hurt your feelings, and let's get into that a little more. Let's almost get interested in what's in the shadows. So I'm all about making the unconscious conscious and finding what is that pain or that hurt.

And if I can accept that that's down there and accept that maybe I've got some wounds and some deficits in my ability to see reality. I can work with my partner because they're the ones that one that pushes my buttons.

I can work with that person to be more inwardly stronger, able to feel the kind of thing that I might call that's unsafe. Because I started out with a theme of safety.

Michael Porcelli: 00:07:09

Yeah.

Susan Campbell: 00:07:10

That's not safe. So I originally was focusing so much on safety as an inside job.

Michael Porcelli: 00:07:22

Yeah.

Susan Campbell: 00:07:23

Like, you had to do it yourself. Yeah. Take care of your own emotional pain and your own wounds.

And I still think that is kind of the basis, but I didn't, in the early days, put enough emphasis, I think, on the. How very, very hard that is for people.

I keep being smacked in the side of the head about how hard it is to let my partner be unhappy with me or let my boss give me a performance review that might be quite objective. Like, you really. You know, you. You really seem to have a very slow way of processing information.

Let's say that would be feedback in a performance review, and let's talk about that. That's slow way. And I find myself, and I think others in the group get kind of anxious hearing how slowly you process.

Can this person learn to accept that they're a slower processor? Can they really learn to accept those things? Or can a person in a relationship learn to really accept that they are highly sensitive to criticism.

Yeah, something like that. Or highly sensitive to being told they're doing something wrong.

So now I'm thinking more that the system itself needs to have some kind of a norm that, yes, I'm responsible for my own safety. I can't expect you to not ever say anything that's hard for me to hear.

Michael Porcelli: 00:09:17

Right.

Susan Campbell: 00:09:18

But we have a little bit more compassion for that tender part. I think I used to be a little more callous. Oh, interesting about.

Oh, like, just feel it, be with it, and you'll learn to expand your capacity for experiencing what is.

Michael Porcelli: 00:09:43

Yeah. Yeah.

Susan Campbell: 00:09:46

Now I think people need a little more generosity if they can. If they can develop the attitude that. Yeah, you're criticizing me, and that's hurting me.

And we're seeing things from a little bit bigger context now, which is we're both. We've both got some wounds or some flat sides in our development.

Michael Porcelli: 00:10:13

Yeah.

Susan Campbell: 00:10:13

And how. How can we create systems that just promote more self acceptance? Because what I said is really hard and keeps shocking me.

Is how hard it is for people to admit their weaknesses.

Michael Porcelli: 00:10:29

Yeah.

Susan Campbell: 00:10:31

And I was always sort of. It's not that hard, you know? Cause it's not that hard for me.

Michael Porcelli: 00:10:36

Gotcha. Yeah.

Susan Campbell: 00:10:37

But it's so hard for so many people, and I think without a little bit more education about. Yeah. When you're triggered by something the other person says, they're not in their right mind. They don't mean what they say.

I think people need a little more education about that dynamic so that they don't keep hurting themselves with, well, I was talking to a woman this morning, and her boyfriend would always say, you're too sensitive, so they don't keep hurting himself with the other person saying, you're too sensitive. But they can realize, oh, when he says that, because we work it as a two person system, and I think we can learn to do that with teams, too.

When you say I'm too sensitive, that's your fear that I'm gonna leave you? Coming up.

Michael Porcelli: 00:11:43

Interesting.

Susan Campbell: 00:11:44

It's so we can. We. If we can communicate at a level of, this is. This is the fear that's coming up for me.

And the other person can tell the fear that's coming up for him or the vulnerable story.

Yeah, you can make it safe for the other person by nothing, by being more forgiving, frankly, by letting them make a mistake of saying you're too sensitive. That was a mistake that he made. He doesn't really mean that. He's afraid that when you're unhappy with him, that means you're gonna leave him.

Michael Porcelli: 00:12:22

I want to tease apart a few things I'm hearing and what you're saying.

I love the response you're bringing, because it sort of comes right to the heart of some of the things that I often think about when working with people in this area. Like, one aspect of this, I hear is the relational. The other one, I hear is the inner dimension, and everything's connected.

These things aren't just totally separate from each other, but they are distinct. And on the one hand, I can see kind of what you're saying.

There's this recognition of somebody's reactivity or what they're saying, potentially being generated from some wounding. And then that we can be more forgiving and understanding of that rather than holding it against them, and that can be safer.

And that having that point of view, that a lot of the levels of the trigger or the degree of the trigger, the sensitivities we have often have a lot to do with our past or just our internal dynamics, not necessarily with the external event, although the external event is somehow close enough, resembling something enough to bring it up. Right. And then something that, on the other hand, that I find can be another.

I think of it as sort of an air mode, is like turning our relationships a little bit into co counseling, right, where it's like, now I need you to really hear all about my past or my wounding and all this kind of stuff. And that if it's consensual, if it's mutual, that can be very healing, very powerful.

And I think a lot of the relational nerd culture, like, come from authentic relating people and stuff. It's like, oh, oh, yeah. It's like, oh, I'm becoming aware of this, and I'm becoming aware of that nuance.

And there's, like, a way of sharing that when everybody's on board for that can be very beautiful and good and healing. And I can also see ways. Well, two things. One is people from.

Who aren't trained in this way or value this sort of thing go like, man, these people are. They're just oversharing too many things.

Susan Campbell: 00:14:55

This can only be done by prior agreement, right?

Michael Porcelli: 00:14:58

Totally, totally.

And then the other one, though, is like, even with people who I think are like, hey, we want this with each other and for each other can create another way of starting to prioritize their own individual inner process, maybe slightly more than just the overall health of their dynamic, of their relationship. And maybe it's better sometimes to take that to a coach or to a counselor and kind of bring it back.

And maybe the relational communication itself can be more, I guess, functional, or I guess, maybe thought of in terms of what serves the highest good of our relationship together.

And sometimes it might be to go into the wounding and to be there to hold space for each other and understand our triggers are coming from these things. But at other times, maybe it's better to be like, well, what do we really want to do about this? Right?

Like, and maybe it is kind of like, all right, can you hold space for me? Or can we have a safe word where we go, hey, can we just time out of this? I don't know.

There seems to be some distinction in my mind between maybe what's healthiest for the relating versus what's maybe the most healing for the individuals. And at times, those are really aligned, but maybe at times they're not. Yeah. What do you think of this?

Susan Campbell: 00:16:33

Ideally, I try to help people process their emotional triggers very efficiently, and that means mostly just holding space for yourself.

Michael Porcelli: 00:16:46

Got it.

Susan Campbell: 00:16:46

And coming back and reporting to the other person, you know, I was triggered, and this brought up my fear of not being good enough. And, you know, you know, the old story from my childhood, I don't have to go into that. And I'm back. I'm back. Exactly. I'm back.

I'm not holding that judgmental story about you. I'm not holding that. You're judging me. That's it. I got that. I went out of presence, and now I'm back.

And I do want to say that I'm sorry I yelled or criticized. That was just my pattern, my habit, and I didn't mean it. I was triggered. So let's go on.

Michael Porcelli: 00:17:34

No, got it.

Susan Campbell: 00:17:35

Please. You know, can. Can you. Can we go on?

Michael Porcelli: 00:17:41

What would we need?

Susan Campbell: 00:17:42

What would we need to go on to go on? So my whole thing is how to process your emotions more efficiently and how to see reality as it really is so you can make good decisions.

Michael Porcelli: 00:17:55

Right.

Susan Campbell: 00:17:56

For yourself or with other people. And you're not. So. Oh, if you disagree with me, that's a big threat to my ego. I mean, we can't. We have no time for that.

Michael Porcelli: 00:18:09

Yeah. Yeah. So in the way that you just described, that version of it, what I heard was like, well, it still is an inside job, like you said.

Susan Campbell: 00:18:18

Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: 00:18:18

And that it's practical in the sense that you don't need the other person to process your trigger or your motion. You could hold yourself in it. That does require somebody have some kind of background in understanding and knowing how to do this.

Susan Campbell: 00:18:34

Yeah. You might have to have somebody show you how to do it. A therapist can show you how to do it, but then that's your practice for the rest of your life.

Now you don't have to keep going to the therapist once you learn how to do it. I believe in practices, personal and system practices. You know, like, we've talked about clearing the air practices.

Michael Porcelli: 00:18:52

Yeah.

Susan Campbell: 00:18:54

We need a lot of practices because we haven't got those things made into habits yet.

Michael Porcelli: 00:18:58

Right.

Susan Campbell: 00:18:59

Those good communications.

Michael Porcelli: 00:19:01

Yeah.

And I was noticing this theme seemed to come more to the forefront in your latest book from triggered to Tranquil, where you were talking about being able to notice a co triggering event happening between you and another person and then even having. I guess you don't have to have, like, a previous arrangement to be like the, hey, we're gonna pause. Like, let's agree.

If somebody says our little safe word, we're gonna agree. But it might be a real healthy relational agreement to have with each other. Like, hey, we're.

Let's agree if somebody needs a pause, or it seems like somebody thinks that the dynamic needs a pause because we're co triggered thinking, pull the pause and we'll pause and then do the thing. Like it sounded like you said, which is like, do the self holding to deescalate the trigger and then return to the thing, which makes sense.

I mean, I know that sometimes when I'm, like, flooded or triggered, I feel like, well, I really have to say this very next word.

Susan Campbell: 00:20:11

Don't do that sentence quoting. Don't do that.

Michael Porcelli: 00:20:17

Don't do that.

Susan Campbell: 00:20:19

Yeah, but I know what you mean. There's this urge. You feel like you just can't pause. Just get this one more thing in, and then they'll understand me.

Michael Porcelli: 00:20:28

Yeah.

Susan Campbell: 00:20:29

So, yeah, these personal practices are hard. Let me just say one more thing about the self inquiry, self compassion practice is after you've paused, the way I guide people, it's designed to.

To show you how to gently and with curiosity go into whatever the feeling and the body contractions are. And then stories start to come into your mind and memories from childhood.

But the idea is to actually touch back into some of the emotional pain that got frozen when you were little. So it's very psychological.

Michael Porcelli: 00:21:10

Right.

Susan Campbell: 00:21:11

But people need those deep psychological tools right now because then when you can witness. So I teach witnessing and create a big noticing container and at the same time feel it.

And it's a little bit like the buddhist practice of seeing something on the screen to give you a little more distance, like on a movie screen. At least I've run into this in my studies of buddhist psychology. Just put that hurting part of you a little bit out of you so that you can see it.

That three year old whose parents left him all alone and he can feel empathy for him. It's easier to feel empathy if it's a movie character, kind of. And so you develop that capacity to move and feel emotional pain.

Because my deepest wish for everyone is that we would learn that we're not little anymore, but that little person who was overwhelmed by that pain and that pain gets frozen inside when you're little and you're overwhelmed, that you're now big and you really can handle a little more painful energy, but you have to kind of guide yourself and be gentle with yourself.

And then once we are a little more able to take emotional pain in stride, you know, that person said they were angry at me right in front of everybody else, and I must have looked like a fool. You can kind of go, all right, I feel that. That's okay. I was able to feel it, and then, okay, I'm still here.

That's my goal for people, is I'm still here. I can take, like, 7 seconds and touch into my little wounded person because I can do that.

I've learned how to do that from just doing these practices that I teach.

Michael Porcelli: 00:23:09

Yeah, yeah, that sounds great. I mean, I think sometimes I can do it. I mean, just to share a little bit about sometimes my experience with it.

Like, I definitely had a whole attachment to being a peaceful, chill guy. I think this is sort of an early upbringing version of myself.

And part of it was like, I'm reacting to dad, kind of this hot tempered italian guy who would blow up. And I'm like, I'm never going to be that way. Like, never going to be that way. And I totally failed at never being that way.

But in the process of really fixating in this way, I would. I would always try to maintain an even, calm voice, even when I was angry.

But what the result was, I would actually not even be aware that I was angry. And then it took my brother to be able to reflect to me. Mike, I can tell that you're angry.

When he first started giving me that reflection, I would be like, I don't think that I'm angry. But now I'm starting to feel angry that you're telling me that I'm angry. Right. And it was like a weird chicken and egg. Which one was coming first?

And I'm like, then he's like, no, but you're doing this thing with your voice. You're trying to be calm, but you're sort of, like, seething underneath. And I can tell, and I don't like the impact of that.

And, like, this is where I was really kind of disconnected. And then learning to be. Allow myself to feel more of what was really there.

Like, it felt like a breakthrough to be able to just allow the anger to come through and be expressed.

Susan Campbell: 00:25:03

Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: 00:25:05

Now, what's interesting about that, though, is like, oh, that can. That kind of hot. Can really contribute to a co triggering or an escalation.

And then if I'm sort of in a really resource state, where it's a little more obvious to me how this connects to some earlier wounding, it's like, okay, I can feel both the anger, but something about the. What's underneath, that kind of thing. Oh, this is coming because I'm just really afraid. Right. And I want you to do what I want you to do. Right.

And if you don't, I'm thinking I might really lose something important to me. So, like. And then, you know, there's like a.

If I'm doing it that way, it's almost like there's a quiver in my voice where tears might start coming, but there's also kind of, like, an intensity. And it's like I'm. I don't know. I feel a little bit like I'm jumbly inside.

Like, fear and anger and sadness are all kind of, like, popping out, like, one after another, like, through my face like this.

Susan Campbell: 00:26:11

Yes. Yeah, yeah. This is when a human is, like, kind of, like, out of control and just really in a process of discovery of something new.

Michael Porcelli: 00:26:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Susan Campbell: 00:26:24

And I'm thinking that's a valuable experience for people to kind of go through. I don't know what's happening. I don't even know what I feel.

Because to get from denial of anger to anger to then what's really underneath the anger that's more tender, there's kind of chaos and confusion somewhere in the learning process.

Michael Porcelli: 00:26:49

Yes, yes.

Susan Campbell: 00:26:50

And I'm harking back to something that I said earlier when you and I were talking at the dining room table about people, I would say, need more training, dealing with chaotic situations. And just this inner work, I'm just making this association now.

Just this inner work that you're describing can teach us to have kind of, like a trust in. If I just stay with this, if I just breathe, if I just feel more will be revealed.

Michael Porcelli: 00:27:24

Yes.

Susan Campbell: 00:27:25

Because there is a natural process of human development, human communication. There's something.

What I like to say is, nature gives us what we need to heal ourselves if we can just kind of get our mind out of the way and slow down and follow where your attention goes.

Michael Porcelli: 00:27:48

Yeah. There's a self. There's, like, an inner intelligence to bring the self back to resolution somehow. But you gotta kind of let it happen.

Susan Campbell: 00:27:58

Yeah. You gotta let go a little bit and go. I don't know where this is going.

Michael Porcelli: 00:28:03

Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, there's a number of. I want to zero in on a couple of things that I think might be.

I keep coming back to them as, like, ongoing inquiries in my own teaching and facilitating. And one of them is the thing we kind of touched on here, which is the anger thing. And when I kind of got into your.

From trigger to tranquil, and it's like, okay, had to do the pause and then do the self regulation and then come back. And now you're like, here I'm back. I could imagine ways people do that as a new habit or practice that kind of creates an emotional mutedness.

I mean, maybe there's this hot tempered italian part of me that just likes how it feels to just yell. But then sometimes I've had experiences where. It's like, it's been very clarifying. Like, I've had other experiences where. Okay.

I think there's a difference between yelling in an angry way and then feeling something spiteful or hateful coming through my words. Like, I'm sort of, like, raging, but then I'm also sending these word weapons that are gonna hurt the person.

And, like, I have done that now and then, but I think I've. Because I started off so peaceful, I really never got good at doing that, and I'm glad that I didn't.

And so now when I sort of let the hot temper rise, I can still have enough presence of mind to, like, I am only saying what I really mean. Even though my voice might be raised. And I have had moments, like, with an intimate partner where that it really worked.

There was something about it that was just, like, whatever back and forth we were having suddenly popped through and was like, oh. And it was. I even checked in with her. I'm like, was this okay? Cause I really yelled at you. And she was like, that was very good.

And I'm like, well, tell me what made it okay? What made it okay? And she was like, well, I could tell that you really cared, and it really mattered.

And I could hear the words you were saying that you meant them.

Susan Campbell: 00:30:35

Mm hmm.

Michael Porcelli: 00:30:36

And I was like, oh, okay. Like, that's good. And, you know, on the flip side, I had another intimate partner really lose her shit with me, and, like.

Like, struck me with her hand, and, like, I was like, well, that was not okay. But what happened was immediately we both started to de escalate together.

Like, it was like something bubbled and burst, and then we came back into connection. And there is something here that feels like there's an aliveness to anger that doesn't feel dead.

That sometimes feels like, well, if I always go like, oh, I'm angry, that's a trigger. I should just pause and then go, de escalate my trigger and then come back. Would there be something missing here?

Susan Campbell: 00:31:28

Yeah. I long for a world where we can get angry and the other person doesn't completely check out and get overwhelmed by that.

Michael Porcelli: 00:31:39

Yeah.

Susan Campbell: 00:31:41

And so there's a couple of complicated issues here. The aliveness of self expression is a value of mine also. And yet. And this.

I think it has something to do with the safety thing, and I'm not 100% clear on where I stand, so let me just talk for a second.

Michael Porcelli: 00:32:05

Great.

Susan Campbell: 00:32:08

Even though my ideal world is one where you can kind of blow up and stay engaged and nobody gets terribly hurt, and nobody completely checks out and freezes.

Michael Porcelli: 00:32:25

Right.

Susan Campbell: 00:32:26

It's just that over time, I'm seeing, and I think there's a there's a cultural trend here too. You know, all the stuff about trauma coming up now in the last five years. Totally.

Michael Porcelli: 00:32:38

Yes.

Susan Campbell: 00:32:41

Even though psychologists knew about this all the time. There's something both for me and seems to be in the culture that's saying, hey, wait a minute, people are way more traumatized than we realized.

And so often when I think I'm delivering some pretty clean anger, you know, like you borrowed my car and you ran it out of oil and it cracked the block or whatever, you know, I get to be angry about that, right? That's not necessarily a trigger. It's not like mindings don't matter which would be a trigger.

Michael Porcelli: 00:33:17

Right.

Susan Campbell: 00:33:17

It's just I'm not going to accept this or I'm just going to let you know, so many people can't have that conversation, that's all. I don't know what to do about that, you know, because I do couples work and it's, you know, what you, the things that you've shared.

I've had those kind of relationships where you can both get angry at each other and turns out fine.

Michael Porcelli: 00:33:46

Yeah.

Susan Campbell: 00:33:47

And, you know, there might even be not hitting involved, but, you know, wrestling.

Michael Porcelli: 00:33:54

Right.

Susan Campbell: 00:33:57

You know, real physicality. Back in the old encounter group days, we did wrestle. That was amazing.

Full out with your husband, you know, I mean, I remember full out wrestling with my husband. All that testosterone and aggression.

Michael Porcelli: 00:34:16

Yeah.

Susan Campbell: 00:34:19

So, you know, I'm not sure then and now or if there is a trend toward people being a little more, let's say, sensitive, because that's what this culture needs to become aware of now, maybe. So maybe we're going a little too far over on the.

So in the encounter group days of the sixties, I mean, we were really hurting each other and we didn't care because it felt good. And somehow out of that came some great intimacy.

And I don't just mean sex, but it feels like a different world now and perhaps a more careful world in a lot of ways. And I'm not sure what to say about that. I mean, but now I'm just thinking gun violence because that's a huge theme right now.

I mean, people are losing their shit right and left.

Michael Porcelli: 00:35:16

And the shooting is different than yelling. Yeah, way different.

Susan Campbell: 00:35:21

So I'm not very coherent right now, but there's value letting it fly as long as your context is one where the people have some ability to come back to presence before too long.

Michael Porcelli: 00:35:46

Right. And if somebody can't, then you maybe either need to change the context of your relationship or create a specific kind of agreement.

Kind of like we just have a no yelling rule, right.

Susan Campbell: 00:35:58

You do sometimes have to have a no yelling rule for certain people who are that traumatized with yelling in their past.

Michael Porcelli: 00:36:05

Yeah. So, I mean, this.

I love that you brought back the encounter groups in the past, and there's some curiosity in me with regards to you and just your experiences through time.

And the thing that changed you started with was like, oh, I thought we could just say the things, and it's an inside job, and you handle you, and I'll handle me, and I can just reveal the thing and it's fine. I I think of this kind of like almost this caricature of radical honesty. It's like we just say it and then they say it, and then I say it.

And this is good.

It's cathartic or it's releasing, or it helps us go more quickly to whatever you want to call this bedrock, like ground level, ground truth or come to truth with each other. And I can see that really working sometimes, but I can also see maybe, and maybe this is. I'm kind of curious, is this where your.

Maybe your perspective changed a little bit over the years was like, that was not really honoring something like the co triggering or the past traumas that were being activated by that and recognizing, hey, in these groups, there were some differences in the room, and, like, we maybe thought we were kind of, like, getting there, and maybe we kind of weren't entirely getting there.

Susan Campbell: 00:37:37

That's right.

Michael Porcelli: 00:37:39

Yeah.

Susan Campbell: 00:37:39

Yeah. What?

It seemed like so many people came for the catharsis back in the old days, participants would come for the catharsis and facilitators, and I was not ever into that instant healing catharsis. You know, you have a big breakdown and a big breakthrough. I can't remember meeting very many facilitators who were like me.

I always thought, this takes repeated exposures integrated into your daily life. It's not someplace you just come and have a blowout session. And so I.

I mean, I definitely had a lot of situations where we did cathartic work, like beating up on a big pillow. Blanket roll. Big blanket roll. You know, they just put a blanket roll in the center of the big circle.

And there was just this suggestion that that blanket roll was somebody that you had a lot of unfinished business with.

And then somebody would just go in and start ripping that blanket to shreds and the pillows, and there was ropes tied around and just get really huge catharsis. And then there'd always be tears at the end, you know, and I fight.

When I was doing it, it was my mother and I'd be yelling at her, you know, you're so stupid.

You didn't know what to do with me and, but it, as I saw the results, it was like it wasn't, it wasn't really having people own that something really happened to me as a child.

I actually think to do the deepest inner work, you do need to be kind of sensitive with yourself and not just, you know, not just anger at the parent, not just putting the parent in an empty chair and yelling at them. There's grief about what you weren't given and to let that in and to really let in with humility.

There's some things I really missed and I might be a different sort of an adult if I had had different life experiences. And no, that's sort of a futile line of thought, but it really causes you grief. But it's like lost potential.

Michael Porcelli: 00:40:07

Yeah. Yeah. Now this is one of the gateways to grief, I think. Grieving what you expected but did not receive.

Susan Campbell: 00:40:13

Yeah. And what you truly needed too, you know, as a child, you needed it.

Now you're gonna have to figure out how to get along by either giving it to yourself or getting it somewhat from others, but you're not gonna get that.

So I'm ambivalent about, I wouldn't want to depend, I guess I should say it, forget the I'm ambivalent, but I wouldn't want to depend solely on the honest expression of anger in a clean way or even a little bit sloppy way. I wouldn't want to, I wouldn't want to see that as the main healing modality or even the main intimacy modality.

Michael Porcelli: 00:41:02

Or even just sort of like, I'm just speaking my truth.

Susan Campbell: 00:41:05

Yeah, well, that's bullshit. When somebody says that.

Michael Porcelli: 00:41:11

That one doesn't even work.

Susan Campbell: 00:41:12

They're so defended. I can almost hear the pain and the insecurity when somebody says that.

So, you know, I think to do the deepest work, and this may be why society is bringing more of this trauma stuff in as individuals, we may do, may have to get gentler, even though it's sort of not as fun and juicy.

Michael Porcelli: 00:41:43

Well, okay, so I don't want to take it.

Susan Campbell: 00:41:45

I want you to stay with your, you know, what about the juice of that?

Michael Porcelli: 00:41:48

What about the juice of that? Well, I mean, I'm going to steer kind of in a different direction, similar maybe in parallel to yours.

So I'll share with you some of the, I guess having been part of these relational communities where people like, love relational practice and relational process and things like circling and authentic relating.

And we're going to keep revealing more and more of our present moment experience and each other's presence and welcoming and reflecting it and sharing impact.

And those to me are like really beautiful practices to develop what I think of as kind of relational capacity, the ability to be with intensity or the ability to hear somebody, even if you're in an elevated state, your ability to put words to your own experience in a way that's clear and conveying the impact you intend. There's a lot to learn here, but in those communities I find that there are these little, maybe it's people getting sidetracked or they get into.

It's like the too much of a good thing thing. It's my talk, my theme of my talk.

It's kind of like we get in those cultures into like, hey, well, I should always be authentically self expressed or something like, hey, what I really need now, and I want to make a clear request, is for you to listen and understand my experience as I share with you all about, you know, I'm angry and then I'm hurt and it's because of this and my past or blah, blah, blah.

And like, there's a little almost like another layer of maybe subtler validation that people start seeking by the oversharing and kind of captive audience sort of thing.

And like, I mean, this is maybe not going from the intensity to the gentler thing, but I, when I think about trying to adapt these practices into organizational life especially, it's easy for me to see how people be like, hey, I don't want to do that with my coworkers because this is not group therapy or managers going like, that's going to take up a lot of time, folks, and we got to get back to work. But then the conventional answer, which is like, button all of that up and don't ever raise your voice or don't ever talk about your feelings.

Then we just create these weird professional Persona shells which we're trying to break through. It does seem like there's something in the middle which is a little bit more almost strictly relational.

This is where a lot of my ideas behind the design of meta relating come from. It's like, let's dip in just enough to get some clarity, practicality, a new agreement or commitment, or just, hey, what was that like for you?

This is what it was like for me. And then be like, okay, do we have enough to keep moving forward?

Which I think in a way, like, in its own way makes it more careful in a way, because we're not going to, like, open up the pandora's box of all of our.

Susan Campbell: 00:45:07

We don't have time to listen to all your feelings about how you feel about being in the minority in this group, whether it's opinion minority or whatever kind of a more. Yeah, we don't do that, but we. We acknowledge that there are differences, but.

Michael Porcelli: 00:45:28

That, you know, I wonder how the thing that I don't really know just yet is, like, how that can be taught like, that.

I can see people who maybe took the leap from conventional professional Persona life all the way to, I'm authentic relating and I just want to, like, talk to my feelings all the time to like, oh, like a pendulum swing, maybe back to somewhere in between. Like, kind of go like, okay.

I have now developed the capacities to name my inner experience or my feelings, and I don't really need to, like, turn anyone who I happen to be talking to when I'm having a feeling into my temporary therapist. Right. Like, okay, cool.

But I mean, can people sort of come from just conventional world and start learning a little bit of something that, like, is a real practical relational practice where, you know, I'm kind of being like, hey, if there's. And this might be a place where you need to do some inner work, we're not really doing that here.

Susan Campbell: 00:46:33

Yeah, you knew that. You do that out there on your own time. Yeah, I think definitely people can be more practical and just.

That's because I think there's huge danger in getting kind of addicted to sharing.

Michael Porcelli: 00:46:50

Right.

Susan Campbell: 00:46:52

I haven't actually made that much of what I teach is in the moment sharing. It's a lot more to do with noticing what comes up in me and revealing that as a method of coming to terms with how I'm different from you.

I mean, differences in the work world, one of the biggest things is learning how to deal with differences in point of view values.

Those are, every group has some kind of polarization in it and subgrouping and so forth, as well as just, you know, that person bugs me because of, you know, some internal trigger.

I think they don't even need to be exposed to that addictive, lovey dovey kind of work, like what you were talking about with your six types of conversations. I have a bias toward what's practical and what makes for good decision making. No, that's kind of.

And what makes for good collaboration across differences. I don't have all the answers, but to me, differences are the huge elephant in the room that it's got to always be dealt with.

Michael Porcelli: 00:48:37

Right.

Susan Campbell: 00:48:38

And differences do push buttons.

Michael Porcelli: 00:48:42

Yes.

Susan Campbell: 00:48:44

And maybe there is a way to kind of recognize that, but we're not giving that an attention any more than just, okay, when somebody disagrees with me, I have fears come up that make it hard for me to listen and collaborate. But let's name that. Let's name the difference. Let's name that.

I'm afraid of not getting my own way, or let's name whatever the blocks are in the moment to hearing each other, because hearing each other is extremely important.

Michael Porcelli: 00:49:34

Yeah, totally.

Susan Campbell: 00:49:38

And expressing without that extra aggression that has the you're wrong element to it. Mm hmm.

Michael Porcelli: 00:49:54

The difference is, I mean, this, to me, is one of the core polarities in relational practice is this polarity between similarity and difference. Right. And there is something I think of as shared humanity, which is that sort of very minimal thing that we all have in common.

And to whatever degree you think human nature is a sizable thing or a small thing, there are commonalities like Marshall Rosenberg talks about in his needs psychology. It's like, hey, we need to drink water, we need to sleep, and we need to be connected. This or Maslow's hierarchy of needs, something like this.

Susan Campbell: 00:50:41

We all have fairly similar needs.

Michael Porcelli: 00:50:43

Yeah. In a real basic way.

And if we were all just thinking the same thoughts or having the same opinions or perspectives on things, we would just all be clones of each other, and it would be super boring. And, I mean, part of the, what's interesting and fun about relationships and, you know, with friendships and intimate partners, it's almost like the.

There's like, just an enjoyment of the difference. And in an organizational context, it's more.

It's maybe there's some enjoyment of difference there, but it's also like, the richness and the actual resource that the differences provide, because it's like, well, you know, I know when I'm being honest with myself, and I think that's probably true for a lot of people. It's like, if somebody just said, like, hey, how would you like to do this? Let's do it your way. How would you like to do this? Let's do it your way.

And I would just be like, I don't know. I mean, I know some things, and there's other stuff I don't know.

And, like, you should talk to this person, because they're way smarter about this thing than I am. Right. Go ask them what they think. And that may be sort of a healthy way of acknowledging these differentials of skill and knowledge and so forth.

But, like, that the differences being kind of unavoidable. Right. And then having, like, a set of practical ways of getting to the bottom of it.

Some of that may be really just technical approaches to project management. How do we coordinate our work together?

But I think some of the differences arise more purely in the relational space where it's like, why is the person talking in that tone? Or, you know, what is that?

Susan Campbell: 00:52:42

Style.

Michael Porcelli: 00:52:43

Yeah, style.

Susan Campbell: 00:52:44

It's like the scientists or engineers and the sales force, the get it done people versus the do it right people is one of the biggest polarities in the workplace. And those two types don't trust each other.

Michael Porcelli: 00:53:01

Right.

Susan Campbell: 00:53:02

You sales people are so sloppy. You sell it before we've even finished the product.

Michael Porcelli: 00:53:06

Yeah.

Susan Campbell: 00:53:07

Oh, and you guys, we would never sell anything if we had to be so damn perfect and do everything, you know, like you guys. So, yes, these are real.

Somehow coming in with a fascination about differences, I think would be, you know, would be an important systems intervention.

Michael Porcelli: 00:53:29

Right.

Susan Campbell: 00:53:30

You know, setting the tone like a mindset.

Michael Porcelli: 00:53:33

You can kind of educate them.

Susan Campbell: 00:53:34

There's going to be differences.

Michael Porcelli: 00:53:35

Yes, yes.

Susan Campbell: 00:53:36

It's not, even if we didn't have differences, differences, I mean, it would be boring. We're going to have differences. There's no choice.

Michael Porcelli: 00:53:43

There's no choice.

Susan Campbell: 00:53:43

They're just in nature.

Michael Porcelli: 00:53:45

Yes, yes.

Susan Campbell: 00:53:46

And so that's our big task right now, is together. Figure out, can I. Patience.

You know, it's an age old virtue called patience, but that's the same thing as being able to hold a charge when you're working with your own trigger reaction.

See, being able to hold charge, being able to hold excitement inside of you so you don't have to always piss it out because you're too much frustration. How do we develop that in a collaborative team in the workplace? It does feel like suppressing my truth sometimes.

I don't know the answer to this, but I think bringing it to the. To the group and letting people know that differences will be our challenge here.

Michael Porcelli: 00:54:42

Yeah. The thing you say, like, well, sometimes it might feel like suppressing.

Sometimes, like, this is another, another thing that in my series of observations and critiques of authentic relating, I kind of sit like. There does seem to be an implicit message sometimes in relational practice groups of, like, opening more is better.

Being closer or more connected is better. Being more authentically self expressed is better. Expressing your feelings more is better.

Susan Campbell: 00:55:12

Yes is better than no, right.

Michael Porcelli: 00:55:15

Having less boundaries is better than boundaries.

Susan Campbell: 00:55:17

That's right.

Michael Porcelli: 00:55:17

And in a way, if people are stuck in a default set of programming, cultural programming, which is like, I don't even know what I want, much less how to ask for it. Feelings. I don't really have vocabulary for feelings. I don't really know how to sense them or express them.

I can sort of see how developing those capacities as kind of like, oh, you're just almost like a remedial training of, like, hey, I. They didn't focus on this in school. Right? Like, let's get current with how to have facility with that.

But then when that sort of set of values that I think are good for training those relational capacities just gets translated over to like, and then that all the time is better for relationships, you miss out on what's good about. Maybe we have an agreement. Like, hey, there's a certain thing we choose to hide from each other.

Like, the thought, like, maybe this means we should break up. You might have that thought.

Susan Campbell: 00:56:24

Yeah. Don't have to say it every time you think it. Yeah, yeah.

Michael Porcelli: 00:56:28

Like, don't. Don't say it unless you're actually serious about having a conversation about ending our relationship. Otherwise, I don't want to hear it.

Please hide that one. Or, I mean, that's. That's good for secure attachment.

Like, if you talk to the secure attachment people, they'll be like, if you want to have a productive conflict resolution, don't threaten the relationship in the middle of that.

Susan Campbell: 00:56:48

You need to help your partner feel secure.

Michael Porcelli: 00:56:50

Exactly.

Susan Campbell: 00:56:51

And so that's the other side of the safety coin. Safety is an inside job or as part of a system, it's in my best interest to help these other people in my world feel safe and secure.

Michael Porcelli: 00:57:02

Right.

Susan Campbell: 00:57:03

So we can have a world where both are going on.

Michael Porcelli: 00:57:08

Yes.

Susan Campbell: 00:57:10

I do think that a lot of times, let's say there's a meeting and I'm patient, and I'm listening to stuff that I don't agree with, and I'm saying to myself, you idiot, how most of us, we do that. But then I go home later, and I'm talking to my spouse or my friend, and I realize there's a lot more than you, idiot.

I actually started to think there's no place for me there.

And see, the thing is, we can ask people to manage their deeper emotional reactivity, but there might need to be some support for how they deal with it later on when they go home and feel really shitty. I don't know. I'm trying to have a best of both worlds model here where we learn patience and self discipline.

And we don't say this relationship is over, but all that stuff in order for me to behave well in the team meeting and be authentic with regard to the task.

Michael Porcelli: 00:58:30

Yeah.

Susan Campbell: 00:58:31

I've still gone home with some relational garbage that I don't know how to process, and I think just most people don't ever want to go there, and that's such a foreign language for most people. I'm not sure what to do with all that internal stuff after a team meeting, for example.

Michael Porcelli: 00:58:52

Yeah, well, I mean, I think this is where I. Boundaries come in handy. You know, there's that old, say, like, good fences make good neighbors. Right?

Sort of like, hey, we want to sometimes close the door and hide the mess, and then we go in there and clean up the mess. Right. Like, in having these distinct contexts or domains where, oh, we prioritize this.

And just as an example, like, I had a client who I was working with, coaching, and, like, you know, we was like, he had a hard day and he was just, like, just texting. Like, I think I need you to help me figure out how to, like, quit this team or something like this. And I was like, cool, awesome.

And then we talked, and then it was like, yeah, well, I was glad I was able to send you that text message. We could talk about that, and maybe I will want to quit that team, but, like, at the very least, I was able to say that to you, but not to them.

Right. Like, so I'm like, okay, there's something about the.

The space for the inside job stuff to happen has perhaps its own set of rules or boundaries or contexts.

Susan Campbell: 00:59:55

I'm remembering something. Yeah, yeah, that does. That.

I did a book on intentional communities a long time ago and visited 30 different communities that have businesses along with them.

Michael Porcelli: 01:00:07

Yes.

Susan Campbell: 01:00:07

And I remember one of the communities, and it was a Quaker practice called the Clearness Committee.

And a lot of the people in this land based intentional community that has businesses that had to do with alternative energy, they did their business, but everyone belonged to a three person clearness committee. And where they got to process the stuff we're talking about now. Yes. What's your. They'd confront each other, you know? Well, what's your part?

You know, you're doing all this blaming with these other people. What's your part in this? And they. It was a safe space to do what this guy did to you.

He called you up and, you know, and you were a safe space for him.

Michael Porcelli: 01:00:57

Right.

Susan Campbell: 01:00:58

But maybe everybody needs a safe space to process.

Michael Porcelli: 01:01:02

Totally. I mean, this is why it's like, I think there's sort of two errors.

One would be sort of like, do the process, wherever, whenever I feel like it, right. Which is not always context appropriate. Or this.

Maybe a corollary would be like, we need to somehow make all spaces safe for everybody all of the time. But if you do that, essentially, it's sort of like, well, everyone's just got to shut up completely forever. It's like, no good little boy. Right?

And that is part, in my mind, like, that's part of the value of relational communication, where we're able to, like, construct a context together.

Like, hey, for this period of time or in this place, or we create an ongoing relational agreement, or we create a temporary one for a certain time and place where it's like, this is. This is the focus. This other stuff is not the focus.

Susan Campbell: 01:02:06

Yeah, we want to get your world. Like you wanted to get this guy's world.

Michael Porcelli: 01:02:10

Yes.

Susan Campbell: 01:02:10

I'm just here to listen. And, boy, now that I've been hurt, I don't feel half as shitty about the team I'm on.

Michael Porcelli: 01:02:17

Right?

Susan Campbell: 01:02:18

Do we know how often that happens? Yeah, you just get to say it. Yeah, but in the business meeting, it wasn't the right context for saying all that.

Michael Porcelli: 01:02:27

Totally. And he might not ever really need to go to the team and say, like, hey, the other day, no, I thought, I want to quit.

Susan Campbell: 01:02:35

Because he got it done.

Michael Porcelli: 01:02:36

You got it done in another way. Yeah, yeah. Which is. It's cool that to kind of trace the in track, like the.

I think about this is, like, whatever you want to call, like, a contextual awareness or something like this. Contextual awareness.

And being able to use relational communication to either make adjustments to the current context or to, like, bubble off or split off a different one or another one in parallel or at another place in time. And then in some of those places, that's where we get our deep connection, intimacy, emotional yumminess, needs met.

And in some places, it's like, hey, we're in a tactical meeting, and we only talk about projects and next actions and goals and schedules.

Susan Campbell: 01:03:32

Okay, so one other thing that comes to mind is because the way tea groups evolved, supposedly, and I wasn't quite there at the time, because it was really the late forties, there'd be a team meeting, and people would be making their contributions, a business meeting type of thing.

And then afterwards, they said, well, let's talk about how we felt, and let's talk about whether we felt included or respected or left out, and all the group dynamics and personal dynamics stuff. So it was the processing after the business meeting where they did the feeling stuff and what they said.

Was, well, the feeling stuff was so much more interesting than the business meeting itself. So let's create t groups where that's all we do.

Michael Porcelli: 01:04:17

That's all we do. That's funny.

Susan Campbell: 01:04:19

That's the origin.

Michael Porcelli: 01:04:20

No way. I didn't know that.

Susan Campbell: 01:04:22

I wasn't quite there, so I'm sure I'm giving some shorthand. That was always the mythology of where tea groups came from.

And then I was very much there in all the early tea groups that started in the late sixties at NTL in Bethel, Maine. I was there every summer, all summer.

Michael Porcelli: 01:04:45

Teaching the NTL, the east coast one, not the west coast ones.

Susan Campbell: 01:04:50

Yeah, yeah.

Michael Porcelli: 01:04:51

There's a significant overlap in T group, and what circling is. They're different, but they're very, very similar. I think it's important and to even create context like this.

So this is where I get excited about, like, well, if we're going to create systems change or, like, build the organizations of the future, like, can we have these spaces or these contexts coexist and even overlap with that same group of people? This group of people that's doing the work also has. And the truth is, companies have these things already.

It's like, hey, we're going to go for happy hour or something like this very conventional version of it. But I could imagine things, too, where it's like, hey, we almost develop a lingo for this. It's like, hey, I've got a relational thing with you.

You have time to sit down one on one with me later, right? Or, hey, group, now that we've closed out the business portion of this meeting, let's do relational debrief. Right? Like, and you can create, like.

Or sometimes I have established with people who I work with very regularly, like, intimately, family, friend. Like, hey, let's make a thing. If we ever have a conflict, we do a conflict debrief after the conflict. How did that go?

And especially these kinds of ones, like, hey, anybody says the timeout or the pause, we stop, right? Yeah.

And then it becomes part of the culture where it's like, hey, we're able to dip into the relational side of things without just going to set boundaries around it.

Susan Campbell: 01:06:31

We name it as, okay, this is our time for relational clearing. That was our time for being patient.

Michael Porcelli: 01:06:39

Right?

Susan Campbell: 01:06:40

Still trying to be real, but we had to be a little too patient. And I didn't get to say, you know, they didn't listen to my idea.

Michael Porcelli: 01:06:51

I have feelings about this.

Susan Campbell: 01:06:54

And everybody goes, tell me more about your feelings. And you need to do that, too.

Michael Porcelli: 01:06:59

Yeah. So you know, as we kind of start wrapping up here, Susan, I'm thinking of people who might be listening to this.

Maybe they're new to relational practices, for they're starting off for the first time, or maybe they're also really experienced and have been involved in communities of, you know, communication practices, relational practices, or they facilitate them.

And from your point of view, if there's some things that maybe give you hope, some things that maybe you wish on behalf of our broader community of relational facilitators, it could be anything or what you see could be possible, or I.

Maybe things that you've always hoped were possible, but maybe have been fully realized, like an invitation or a direction or something you could give. Like, I'm trying to keep it pretty open here for that. What would you say?

Susan Campbell: 01:08:14

Well, I think there's a theme in some of our work that has to do with learning to identify your main identity more as a noticer. I notice these feelings coming up in me, but not being quite so identified with the feelings.

I'm not sure if that's based on the anger goodness of juicy anger conversation. I'm not sure if this is evolutionary or not, but I think it is.

I think being able to step outside that ego protective, to be gentle toward that part of yourself, but kind of as you get more capacity to witness and notice and use words like, I notice that I'm feeling, rather than just, you know, give them a little space on that level of the human, I'm sort of into that. That might be called a spiritual, you know, more toward the spiritual evolution of letting feelings come and go, letting thoughts come and go.

But I wouldn't go so far as to just discounten thoughts and feelings. They're very important to name them as that.

Michael Porcelli: 01:09:41

Right.

Susan Campbell: 01:09:43

It's just that I think there's some hope in those practices that strengthen the noticer or the witness.

Michael Porcelli: 01:09:53

Yeah. And when I imagine, like, what kind of world we could create together, if we were able to do that more often.

Susan Campbell: 01:10:05

Yeah.

Like, we could say, we have a difference, you know, just the observer, just the ability to step out and look, that's what I kind of want for humanity. It's like, hey, humanity, how are we doing as humans in stewarding this planet, in creating collaborative systems, self renewing systems?

How we doing? Well, you know, can we have that conversation? Or I. Or how did I do in that meeting? Or how are we doing in this lovemaking session?

Are we both really wanting to be here? Can we step outside and go, hey, time out. Let's check in with each other skills like that just seem like they're going to be needed.

So we just don't get so much into the polarization left, right. What if we could say, hey, Mandy, we're different, and that's painful and that's scary, and I still want to work on this together.

Michael Porcelli: 01:11:04

Yeah.

Susan Campbell: 01:11:06

So it's that stepping above the level of the problem that, you know, Einstein said something about that and Carl Jung said something about that. You have to get above and look down on the problem, and then you're at a different level of consciousness or maybe something more useful can happen.

Michael Porcelli: 01:11:26

Yep. Totally makes sense to me. Yeah.

Susan Campbell: 01:11:30

It's not too idealistic or fanciful, because it seems a little bit that way when I hear myself.

Michael Porcelli: 01:11:39

I think most people probably have had moments of being able to kind of, like, rise above a thing or observe themselves in a moment or situation.

I think people who maybe have done a lot of therapy or a lot of meditation training have really learned how to do that very well when it comes to themselves and maybe when it comes to how they're observing the world around them. But what I want to add to that skill is how can we do that in joint attention?

How can we actually be in relationship with each other in a conversation with each other where, you know, one or both of us are nudging the other's perspective upward?

And if it is to get some purchase on our dynamic between us or on, like, what's going on with our team here or what's going on in the family system here, like, to be able to start putting that rising above or looking at it from above into words, and to start to share some of that perspective. That from above with each other, I think, can be super powerful. And I think that's.

I mean, I definitely want a lot more people in the world to know how to do that. And then I do actually think the world does become a noticeably better place if most people start practicing it and doing it with each other.

Susan Campbell: 01:13:22

There's little ways to practice it. Like, hey, can we pause and ask how we're both feeling right now about this conversation? I'm bored. I am, too. Let's change the subject.

Michael Porcelli: 01:13:35

Exactly.

Susan Campbell: 01:13:36

It's a common thing like that.

Michael Porcelli: 01:13:38

Yeah.

Susan Campbell: 01:13:39

And some of the authentic relating practices are a part of that skill set.

Michael Porcelli: 01:13:45

Totally. Totally. Well, Susan, it's been an honor to spend this time with you.

I'm glad you were willing to just spontaneously dive into this conversation with me. And I really had a great time connecting with you and getting to know you better.

And, you know, all the adventures you've been on and the evolution of your thinking. Yeah, I really appreciate it.

Susan Campbell: 01:14:05

It's been a delight talking to you. Right on.

Michael Porcelli: 01:14:07

Oh, take care.

Relational Conversations is the official podcast of meta relating an innovative approach to communicating effectively about your relationships, whether personal or professional.

If you've enjoyed this episode, please rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and check out our resources, training, courses, and Events@metarelating.com. this podcast was produced and edited by me, Michael Porcelli, founder of Metarelating. Thank you for listening and stay connected for more.